Bryan, in your answer to Q#4, you made the sort of statement every advocate for Charismatic Gifts makes: you really have no idea how to determine how many in your camp are orthodox and how many are unorthodox. However, it seems to me that all of you also make a basic assumption: of course the people you represent are overwhelmingly orthodox. That assumption underlies all of the arguments in favor of the continuation of gifts.
How should the Cessationist approach that assumption, given that you have plainly said that there's no way to verify it?
How should the Cessationist approach that assumption, given that you have plainly said that there's no way to verify it?
First, understand there's a huge accounting difference between asking us to verify how many in the entire charismatic movement are in healthy practice, as opposed to just asking us to verify how many in our local church or network of churches are in healthy practice. Why is our initial response to that kind of accounting hard to understand? Even you said, "I don't think there's any kind of growing passion or acceptance of continuationism in 'respected scholars and pastors' which is quantifiable." Yet it's obvious the reformed charismatic movement is growing rapidly. And the increasing numbers of those pastors and sheep that you say can't be quantified would be included in the accounting you are asking us to take responsibility for as they seek to practice the gifts in a healthy way.
Second, it's not an assumption that those we represent locally are in healthy practice, it's observation and experience with our own local congregations, each with their own shepherding strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, the reality of the continuation of the gifts is not contingent on perfect orthodoxy or practice, so you shouldn't find us arguing for continuation based on our own healthy functioning. The Holy Spirit gave gifts to both the Corinthian church and the Galatian church, each with their own doctrinal and personal problems. The continuation of the manifestations of the Spirit are still distributed according to His will (Hebrews 2:4;I Cor.12:11). He obviously can choose to give and take away, for many reasons which could include unsound teaching that's crept in to the church, but scripture seems to point to Him still giving these gifts of Himself in the midst of abuse and doctrinal issues.
As far as I know, you'd probably be welcome to go and observe different congregations Frank. I think what you'll find in my circles and many continuationist churches is many people who are coming from the "open but cautious" camp to a position of actually wanting to relate more personally with the Holy Spirit, learn about how God still speaks and heals, and what it means to obey Paul's command (or exhortation if you like) to pursue love and desire the gifts with a pure motive for building up others. Though what you'd find might be immature in development, you'd find congregations that are the least likely to be given over to abuses -- simply because of where they're coming from. However, that being said, your next questions will give me opportunity to go in to more detail about the concerns I've had even in my own congregations who I'd still consider to be healthy.
How should the cessationist approach this "assumption"?
1. Realize it's not an assumption, we've said that it's simply more reasonable for us to say we can verify what's going on in our own congregations not what is happening everywhere. Perhaps also consider the unreasonableness of assuming that if someone decides that they're going to obey Paul's command to pursue love and earnestly desire spiritual gifts, that they simultaneously are signing up to have to defend the entire charismatic movement.
2. Perhaps go and observe for yourself what healthy practice looks like and how that healthy practice is standardized, shepherded, and enforced in local continuationist congregations. Realize that more corporate standardization and pleas for a more global charismatic reformation have been issued by charismatic leaders.
Though I haven't read it, you made me aware of Lee Grady's book which looks to be something that conservative continuationists and others in my circles should consider, since he's experienced more of the extremes, as has Craig Keener, whose response to Strange Fire may be very helpful for you and those readers who want more answers to abuses and the worst sides of the charismatic movement that it appears I'm inadequate to deal with in a more helpful way. I think this book, as well as others, should be an encouragement to cessationists that many of the issues raised by Strange Fire are being addressed and called to reformation on a large scale.
3. Consider exploring and taking more seriously why it is that you feel more called or convicted to patrol and control spiritual gifts (or to command someone patrol spiritual gifts) than you do to obey the command to covet earnestly and pursue spiritual gifts.
